NEWS:

Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Discuss Brogue -- strategy, feature requests, discoveries, character builds...

Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Pender » September 11th, 2013, 8:03 pm

It is my pleasure to announce the release of Brogue v1.7.3 for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux. Downloads, screenshots, a forum and a wiki can be found here:

https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/home

New with v1.7.3:
⁃ Redesigned the stealth system to promote transparency and tactical interest. Monsters now have a flat 25% chance per turn to notice you if they are within your “stealth range,” which is a product of light level, invisibility, whether you spent the previous turn resting, rings of stealth and the natural weight of your armor. Your stealth range is listed on the side bar and may optionally be displayed on the map. Hunting monsters will lose track of you if they are farther away than triple your stealth range (or more than two spaces away if you’re invisible).
⁃ Redesigned ally progression to make allies feel less compulsory and capricious. A charge from the new Wand of Empowerment will permanently increase the combat abilities of a monster and allow it to absorb one ability from a fallen enemy. Allies that are empowered and subsequently negated will be able to re-learn their lost abilities. Allies no longer progress in strength or abilities from “exploration experience.”
⁃ Score upon victory is determined exclusively by gold, the amulet and lumenstones; other items are not counted. To compensate, the amulet is worth 35,000 gold instead of 10,000.
⁃ Implemented conduct challenges, which are listed on the death and victory screens as appropriate (but otherwise do not affect the game or score).
⁃ Scrolls of recharging no longer affect wands.
⁃ Food generation is slightly more generous, and somewhat less predictable.
⁃ Sneak-attacking with a runic will either double the proc chance or increase it halfway to 100%, whichever is less.
⁃ Added a new trap: the net trap.
⁃ Added a new charm type: the guardian charm.
⁃ Added a new quest room: the goblin warren.
⁃ When equipping armor, the armor value will rise from zero over several turns to discourage frequent armor swapping.
⁃ Wands of domination and plenty are less common.
⁃ Added axe and spear attack patterns to certain monsters. Spectral weapons from multiplicity inherit the attack pattern of their parent weapon; nagas and dragons attack all adjacent opponents like axes; and goblin attacks penetrate like spears.
⁃ Negation charms have limited range, which increases with the enchantment level of the charm.
⁃ Pressure plates are no longer activated by items floating onto them or by aquatic monsters in water.
⁃ Grappling monsters have more health.
⁃ Nerfed the jellymancer build by preventing split jellies from inheriting their progenitor’s learned abilities or attributes.
⁃ Reflected bolts won’t turn allies against you.
⁃ Submerging monsters cannot have the “explosive” mutation.
⁃ Damage from poison, caustic gas, steam, burning, mutuality and reprisal now ignore magical protection status.
⁃ Poison damage pops up temporary alerts similar to health alerts.
⁃ Added a “view dungeon seed” item to the menu button at the bottom of the screen.
⁃ Summoners can continue to summon while they are fleeing.
⁃ Polymorph erases mutations.
⁃ Drinking a potion of descent will cause you to fall unless you are levitating, irrespective of the terrain you are standing on.
⁃ Pit bloats are a lighter shade of blue.
⁃ Bloodwort pods no longer appear in the side bar; only the stalk is listed.
⁃ Accumulated gold is described on the game over screen.
⁃ Poisonous attacks won’t affect inanimate creatures.
⁃ Guarding and worshiping monsters will mill about more randomly.
⁃ Spectral blades aren’t listed in the side bar unless highlighted by the cursor.
⁃ Centaurs and spiders will launch their projectile attacks whether or not the enemy is reflective.
⁃ Centaurs and arrow turrets can hit turrets, won’t attack creatures embedded in obstruction crystals and won’t lose their ranged attack when negated.
⁃ Shattering will free dormant creatures trapped within.
⁃ Guardians hit harder, and monsters avoid them better.
⁃ Potions of purple gas and pink jellies are referred to as caustic rather than poisonous.
⁃ Monsters that learn to fly will lose the ability to submerge and will no longer be constrained to liquids.
⁃ Weapons known to have runes of acid mound slaying won’t warn against attacking an acid mound.
⁃ Creatures launched by weapons of force will damage (in addition to being damaged by) the enemy that they slam into.
⁃ Fleeing monsters won’t become aware of your location if you’re invisible unless you’re next to them.
⁃ Thrown items won’t hit submerged creatures.
⁃ Runic armor with an unknown enchantment level won’t give away its enchantment levels from its description.
⁃ Gouts of flame appear when monsters are consumed by lava, similar to items.
⁃ Fixed message color issues when one ally kills another discordant ally.
⁃ Tweaked negation order of operations so negating an infected golem won't release spores.
⁃ “(Off balance)” status indicators appear only when a monster is hunting.
⁃ Fixed a bug that caused certain creatures to flee at the start of a level.
⁃ Fixed a bug that caused the vampiric trait to increase a monster’s max health over time.
⁃ Fixed some edge case bugs that resulted in malformed machine rooms and bridges.
⁃ Fixed bugs related to naming items.
⁃ Fixed bug that caused discordant monkey or imp allies to flee forever if they steal an item while discordant.
⁃ Fixed grammatical flaws related to choosing between “a” and “an”
Pender
Site Admin
 
Posts: 756
Joined: May 21st, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby kerri » September 11th, 2013, 9:13 pm

Sounds exciting! Thanks for all the hard work!
kerri
 
Posts: 76
Joined: May 12th, 2013, 12:18 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Rev » September 11th, 2013, 11:21 pm

This looks great - lots of bug fixes and changes and some new stuff too!

And let the record show that I am responsible for perhaps the most trivial change on the list:

Potions of purple gas and pink jellies are referred to as caustic rather than poisonous.


That's right. Thank me later.

As for this one:

⁃ Monsters that learn to fly will lose the ability to submerge and will no longer be constrained to liquids.


Brb, trying to make a flying kraken.
User avatar
Rev
 
Posts: 441
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 3:12 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby bleezy » September 12th, 2013, 12:35 am

RELEASE THE KRAKEN
bleezy
 
Posts: 129
Joined: July 1st, 2012, 7:51 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 9:29 am

I’m assuming with the other new changes this means that the only way to obtain a Kraken ally is to have both a wand of domination and a wand of empowerment? If I’m reading this correctly, on the upside of the new empowerment wand, you’ll get to choose exactly when and where your allies learn their abilities (making it easy to dominate a Kraken, bring a flier to the water’s edge, then empower the Kraken so it’s ready to learn and devours the fresh carcass you sent adrift in the tide), but on the downside, if you never find the wand, your allies never get stronger?

Alright! The race is on to find a good seed for getting your own Kraken buddy! Bonus points to seeds with more empowerment wands/charges, and possibly earlier OoD Krakens (‘cause I don’t want to wait to have my flying tentacle buddy).

*edit* ... I added a new thread for just this information. Please post it there to help out all your fellow Brogues.
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Goratrix » September 12th, 2013, 10:34 am

Whoa, that's a big changelog again, looks amazing!
Goratrix
 
Posts: 196
Joined: April 18th, 2012, 11:55 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby heroicfisticuffs » September 12th, 2013, 10:37 am

Oh great, right in the middle of my "try to play things other than brogue" week :)

Thanks for this Pender, looks like another great improvement on an already great game.
User avatar
heroicfisticuffs
 
Posts: 96
Joined: March 16th, 2013, 12:15 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 11:51 am

This is Fantastico!
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 12:30 pm

The new sneaking mechanics are going to make this tough… I’ve already given 1.7.3 a try at work (shh, don’t tell my boss!), and a flat 25% chance to notice you racks up pretty quickly when you try to approach a mob, even on the diagonal. Whereas I used to be able to sneak up on mobs and get criticals on them with a degree of regularity, I’m now finding it nigh impossible to go more than two or three steps before I’m noticed, and that hurts significantly when you’re in an open area with a stealth range of 12. Even evading mobs is going to become less of an option, it seems… a stealth range of 12 is a VERY large area.
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby tinyrodent » September 12th, 2013, 12:39 pm

Yeah I've tried some stealth without much success. It's fine for the early dungeon while wearing light armor. But that's not a safe way to travel later on. Also a ring of stealth hardly seems to help at all.
tinyrodent
 
Posts: 632
Joined: July 9th, 2012, 3:26 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 12:59 pm

I think the trick is to continue to wear light armor or to take off your armor off if you really want to sneak past something. But this is balanced by the "donning armor" mechanic which makes it sub optimal to change armors too much. In these cases rings of stealth are very helpful. The new stealth system seems to make it easier to slip past undetected because you can always tell if you could be seen, but harder for those assassination kills. But what do I know, I've only made it to lv 9 so far!
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby bleezy » September 12th, 2013, 1:21 pm

I like the new stealth- I just played with a ring of stealth +8 and I had a radius of 1 while wearing scale mail. Considering good runics are found with leather/scale/chain a ring of stealth seems like it can be pretty potent.
bleezy
 
Posts: 129
Joined: July 1st, 2012, 7:51 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 1:25 pm

The armor rating changes make gear swapping too dangerous for the stealth bonus, as if you do get caught (and you will), it takes a turn to get the armor on, and then you’re fighting with sub-par defense. If what tinyrodent says about says about stealth rings is true, then I wonder how well stealth builds are going to work? Are stealth rings + warhammer going to be a big risk setup now?

Honestly, the old system made more logical sense to have your stealth range work on a gradient scale than a solid 25%. It’s more realistic to think that enemies toward the outside of your stealth range would have less of a chance of noticing you than enemies one step away. Doesn’t make much sense either that a sleeping mob is just as alert as a wandering one… you would think there would be penalties to mob awareness based on what they were doing. A sleeping enemy would have the largest penalty, a guarding enemy would have a moderate penalty, and a wandering enemy would have no penalty.

It’d be nice to see the graphical representation of stealth reversed… instead of the “orange” area being outside of your stealth range, have you stealth range be represented by a shaded circle, with the color lighter on the boundaries and darker toward the character to suggest increased likelihood that a mob will notice you the closer they get.
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 1:28 pm

bleezy wrote:I like the new stealth- I just played with a ring of stealth +8 and I had a radius of 1 while wearing scale mail. Considering good runics are found with leather/scale/chain a ring of stealth seems like it can be pretty potent.


I'm wondering if you're this stealthy because of the new stealth mechanics, or would have had the same/better results with a +8 stealth ring in 1.7.6?
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 1:45 pm

Oraticus wrote:Honestly, the old system made more logical sense to have your stealth range work on a gradient scale than a solid 25%.


Well it still is a gradient in that the longer it takes you to get to an enemy while in your stealth range, it becomes increasingly likely they will wake up.

1. turn is 25%
2. 43%
3. 57%
4. 68%
5. 76%

And so on.

The difference is now you can be a sneaky character or a plate mail character, but its gonna be hard to be both.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 2:29 pm

Guitar wrote:
Oraticus wrote:Honestly, the old system made more logical sense to have your stealth range work on a gradient scale than a solid 25%.


Well it still is a gradient in that the longer it takes you to get to an enemy while in your stealth range, it becomes increasingly likely they will wake up.

1. turn is 25%
2. 43%
3. 57%
4. 68%
5. 76%

And so on.

The difference is now you can be a sneaky character or a plate mail character, but its gonna be hard to be both.


Yes, it's true that the longer they remain in your stealth (or should i call it non-stealth?) zone, the more likely they are to notice you (25% per turn), but it's still not a gradient. What your suggesting is that after five turns of remaining in your stealth zone, they have a 76% cumulative chance of noticing you (25% chance per turn over five turns), and not that their chance to notice you on turn five is 76% chance, right (it's still only a 25% chance, based on what Pender said)?

If your enemy is 1 step away from you, or 10 steps away from you, they both have the same % chance of noticing you... doesn't seem too logical. What I'm suggesting is that, if your enemy enters this stealth zone, the furthest squares have maybe a 5% chance of detection when entered. If the enemy walks through a door, however, and their step through the door puts them into the space right next to you (and ultimately that would be their first step into your stealth zone, I'd hate to see door stealth attacks disappear), they have a 65-70% chance of noticing you on that turn.

The effect of stealth rings would be to subtract an amount of that percentage per enchant level, and if the outermost area of your stealth zone falls to or below 0%, then your stealth radius reduces by one. Conversely, adding heavier armor would be additive. You'd maintain the stealth effect based on your gear, but it would better resemble proximity.
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 2:58 pm

Yes I did mean that the cumulative chance. It approaces 100% over time. I seem to have mistook gradient for exponential, or some similar term. Sorry about the confusion. The benefit of the in-game system is clarity. You always know the chance that any given monster will notice you without having to look at a tooltip or doing any calculations. With your system if I wanted to find the chance of a monster awakening before I reach them it would be very difficult. With the current system it is the same every time. I actually find it very elegant.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 3:25 pm

The problem I have with the system is that, while it is simple to know that there’s a 25% chance that you’ll alert a mob as long as they’re within your sphere of detection, it’s also somewhat unfair, especially to people who are trying to avoid a mob. If you see an ogre coming at you when you’ve naught but your leather and dagger, and you’re in a room that’s narrower than your current stealth radius, you could be all the way on one side of the wall, and the ogre passing on the other wall, but as soon as he enters that sphere of detection (I guess there is no 3rd dimension, so “circle” would be more accurate, but I like to think of that world as possessing all dimensions), he has the same chance to notice you as he would if you were standing face to face with him. It seems unbalanced, and even somewhat against the nature of a roguelike where a premium is usually placed on sneaking around and avoiding mobs that would either destroy you or cripple you (hate you, centipedes). If someone is good enough to navigate the dungeon with mobs just on the peripheries of their detectable range, why should they suffer the same detection penalty as the person walking hand-in-hand, side-by-side with a big nasty?

Besides, I believe this is roughly how it worked before, and calculations on the part of the player never entered into it. You just prayed to the RNG gods to spare you another turn while you tried to bury your dagger into an approaching kobold's face.
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 3:55 pm

If you minimize the time the ogre spends in the circle it has roughly the same effect, giving you a parabolic curve. Good debate though. I like looking at mechanics from different angles.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 4:15 pm

You make an accurate point, and I was wondering if you’d catch that. The overall chance, again, goes down depending on length of time remaining in the range of detection. Still, the logic seems way off… why am I as noticeable across the room as I am hugging the ogre’s face and staring it in the eyes? There’s no accounting proximity in this model, with the exception of there being a line… if you’re outside the line, then you’re invisible, but one toe over the line and you’re as noticeable as if you were standing and inch away from the monster.

Mostly I ask this because I’ve been messing around with 1.7.3 for a little bit, and I’m finding it’s having roughly the opposite effect I was expecting this change to have. Here I was expecting it to get a little bit easier in the beginning because now my starting character was considered “more stealthy” due to wearing the lightest armor possible, but I’m aggro’ing more mobs than I have ever before. I figured this model would actually be beneficial to a lightly-garbed initial rogue, but it’s basically pulling every mob within a 6-12 space radius and bringing them almost straight down on me… I’ve been abusing bloodwort pods more than I have ever before. Maybe the 25% is too high? Or maybe I’m just REALLY that unlucky. Still, I can walk into a room, and as soon as I see a mob 7 spaces away, he’s already in hunting mode.

On the upside, I got two rations of food on D3… did food just become much more prolific?
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 4:29 pm

Hmmm... I feel like I've been actually doing better than before, but I hadn't played in a while. I have seem to have found a lot of stealth rings and prioritizing them when I do. With a +5 ring of stealth and leather armor you are effectively invisible, except when standing in a pool of light, which is super exciting. It's almost as if your use of stealth is your armor at that point: It's the only protection you've got. Got squished by an ogre after he stepped on a paralyze trap that hit me but not him on d9 unfortunately. I had Stealth, Clairvoyance, a War Hammer and a rapier for when things went weird, so it was a super fun run up to that point. I make it to about d9 or 10 every time so far, then get killed.

I think having proximity not count in stealth is the price you pay for simplicity and imho worth it. What helps is you can plan around the range where you are certain that you will be absolutely undetectable, and it makes a huge difference, at least for me. When you let an enemy in that range, you know that you are rolling the dice.

Also, FYI food is slightly more common than in 1.7.2.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby butteredtoast » September 12th, 2013, 4:49 pm

Updated the Sporcle quiz

http://www.sporcle.com/games/tommyjohnx/brogue

Would this be something worth linking on the wiki somewhere? Feel free to add it if so.
butteredtoast
 
Posts: 38
Joined: September 22nd, 2012, 10:39 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Rev » September 12th, 2013, 4:58 pm

butteredtoast wrote:Updated the Sporcle quiz

http://www.sporcle.com/games/tommyjohnx/brogue

Would this be something worth linking on the wiki somewhere? Feel free to add it if so.


The whole idea of a wiki is that anyone can edit it. If you think it belongs there, go ahead and add it.
User avatar
Rev
 
Posts: 441
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 3:12 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Pender » September 12th, 2013, 5:14 pm

Guitar wrote:I think having proximity not count in stealth is the price you pay for simplicity and imho worth it.

Exactly my thought process. It used to be that your odds of alerting a monster changed smoothly with your distance, but it was an opaque mechanic that you had to research to understand. Now, it's much clearer: you know exactly when you're taking a risk and exactly what the risk is.

That said, it may well turn out to be the case that the current numbers aren't the right numbers. For example, we could adjust the base stealth radius or stealth chance, halve the stealth chance for sleeping monsters, or make any number of other tweaks if experience supports those changes. Let's give it some time and see what feels right.
Pender
Site Admin
 
Posts: 756
Joined: May 21st, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 12th, 2013, 5:16 pm

I like your Sporcle Quiz. Very cute! A Sporcle Quiz for Brogue... How outlandish!
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby bleezy » September 12th, 2013, 5:19 pm

Rogues have a much better handle on what's going on with the new system. Isn't it true that if a rogue has a stealth radius of 1:

*He can get a guaranteed stealth attack against a monster that is moving towards him.

*If he moves away from a double speed monster that is moving towards him he get a guaranteed stealth attack.

*He has a 75% chance to get a stealth attack against a stationary monster.

*If he is hasted he can get a guaranteed stealth attack against a stationary monster.

This kind of predictability seems good to me.
bleezy
 
Posts: 129
Joined: July 1st, 2012, 7:51 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Oraticus » September 12th, 2013, 6:17 pm

Y’know… I gotta say I love a forum where you can have a discussion without people flaming/trolling you for your perspective on something.

@Pender… I hope my opinion doesn’t come across the wrong way. I appreciate the effort you’ve put into the game, and my criticisms are never meant to be inflammatory. :)

@Guitar… Thanks for a professional discourse. I will entirely agree that it is a simple approach, always knowing what your chances are, and that there is no variation, even though I personally am not the fondest of it (but again, personal preference).

I’m interested to see what is the consensus of other players is. Maybe it is just me, and I’ve either been unlucky, don’t have a play style that fits this new method, or just had a sudden drop in skill (I pray it’s not the latter). I don’t usually equip weapons/armor until I’ve had a chance at a soft identify via DM or remove curse, and get by simply by evasion and stealth kills until about the time I start running into Ogres. When the next contest comes out, it’ll be a great opportunity to see how the new dungeon treats them!

Speaking of contests, I’m assuming because of the new pool of spawnable items, a dungeon generated from a seed in 1.7.2 will not be the same as a dungeon generated from that same seed in 1.7.3, correct? For instance, if I do Rev’s Sunday #2 challenge on 1.7.3, will I be running a dungeon with potentially a different item and layout generation than what everyone else has been doing?
Oraticus
 
Posts: 413
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby evilmike » September 12th, 2013, 11:00 pm

The new wand of empowerment is an interesting idea but I'm finding a bit of an ugly effect when they're placed in item vaults. Basically, if I see one in a vault, I can make a note of the level it's on (ideally on the item I pick from the vault) and then come all the way back with a good ally I want to upgrade. Food puts some limit on this, but it's still a problem in my opinion (backing up two or three levels to do this is quite doable, but it's still tedious). It's a similar issue to item hauling.

I don't think wands of empowerment should be allowed to spawn in these vaults. Come to think of it, other wands in vaults might be a problem now too. In 1.7.2, you could hold on to an empty wand with the intent of recharging it later. In 1.7.3, you're more encouraged to return empty wands to vaults, since they are pretty useless at 0 charges.
evilmike
 
Posts: 12
Joined: May 11th, 2012, 10:11 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby morphles » September 13th, 2013, 10:17 am

Interesting changes in this version. And I'll admit I havent given much time to new version yet (barelly anyt in fact) still, I have some observations, that are mostly not positive.

Ally change: This reminds me of my post about charm of blessing, where I said that it seems like interesting idea, but basically by the fact that it would benefit all characters it would devide games into: with blessing and without blessing. So I think this does the same. Though I think it might be even worse, as blessing would be just obvious benefit. Allies are sometimes something like a last straw, when running quite weak build you could relly on some allies and help from them, in the hopes of some good item. I think this might be less true now. Though admittedly some allies are great help even without additional traits, so I might be exagerating. Will have to play more to evaluate this.

Stealth, oh boy. I'm quite strongly agree with Oraticus. And must note that sneaking up on enemies in first levels seems to be basically impossible. Again haven played much but it seems like very very strong nerf for stealth. 25% seem like way too high with no distance falloff. Also to give similar point to falloff - action influence. In this regard current stealth system also seems to be totally broken logicwise. You have sem chance of bein spotted while standing absolutely still in a corner at distance of say 5 as you do while hitting golem with your broadsword 2 squares away. Dunno maybe this system is indeed simpler, but I would not call it intuitive in any way. And would say that fallof was more intuitive. Also I think it was more flexible.

Some other points to consider: yeah more deterministic system seems to be better (but I would even question this premise), however, how much more deterministic is this system really? I'd argue that it is not more deterministic in any way. Since there still exists chance. What one could call it is more transparent. But here we come to another problem/sligh contradiction in the design. Brogue tries to avoid numbers in many places. For example nether your hit points nor monsters, nor damage of ether is reported in exact numbers. Only in percentages. Now stealth is also being reported in percentage, but the problem is that percentage is all there is to stealth. So basically game gives full detail about stealth, while providing considerably less detail in other places. Again this is not necesarily bad or even significant, it just seems like slight discrepancy.

So much for now. I guess I'll have to play and see how these things really work out.
morphles
 
Posts: 313
Joined: September 9th, 2010, 2:42 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 13th, 2013, 12:18 pm

I'd recommend playing a little more to get a better feel for the new mechanic. Have you guys been playing with the stealth range displayed([)? I find it helps a lot. I am also very curious as to what will happen on the upcoming contests.
Last edited by Guitar on September 13th, 2013, 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 13th, 2013, 12:20 pm

bleezy wrote:Rogues have a much better handle on what's going on with the new system. Isn't it true that if a rogue has a stealth radius of 1:

*He can get a guaranteed stealth attack against a monster that is moving towards him.

*If he moves away from a double speed monster that is moving towards him he get a guaranteed stealth attack.

*He has a 75% chance to get a stealth attack against a stationary monster.

*If he is hasted he can get a guaranteed stealth attack against a stationary monster.

This kind of predictability seems good to me.


Its actually a little better than that as range 1 stealth looks like this
Code: Select all
.#.
#@#
.#.


Where # is your stealth radius.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Rev » September 13th, 2013, 12:56 pm

evilmike wrote:The new wand of empowerment is an interesting idea but I'm finding a bit of an ugly effect when they're placed in item vaults. Basically, if I see one in a vault, I can make a note of the level it's on (ideally on the item I pick from the vault) and then come all the way back with a good ally I want to upgrade. Food puts some limit on this, but it's still a problem in my opinion (backing up two or three levels to do this is quite doable, but it's still tedious). It's a similar issue to item hauling.

I don't think wands of empowerment should be allowed to spawn in these vaults. Come to think of it, other wands in vaults might be a problem now too. In 1.7.2, you could hold on to an empty wand with the intent of recharging it later. In 1.7.3, you're more encouraged to return empty wands to vaults, since they are pretty useless at 0 charges.


I think the time tradeoff makes this fair, just as it was never really a problem in past releases. The only thing that's different now is that scrolls of recharging don't add charges to wands, which gives less incentive to keep the wand. Personally, I'm fine with it.
User avatar
Rev
 
Posts: 441
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 3:12 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby imp_rover » September 13th, 2013, 3:18 pm

I find the new stealth system a bit too binary. If I use the heavier armour types, the whole level seems to wake up before I can sneak up on anyone. On the other hand, when not wearing anyting, it's only a minimal investment to get guaranteed diagonal critical attacks, which can make a lot of problem enemies trivial (here, 100% reliability feels wrong to me).

Overall I much prefer the new, more transparent mechanics (and incentives for lighter runic armour are always nice), but I think the old system would be better approximated if the minimum stealth range was a square, but the per turn stealth failure chance was somewhat lower.
imp_rover
 
Posts: 31
Joined: November 11th, 2011, 8:46 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Rev » September 13th, 2013, 3:41 pm

imp_rover wrote:I find the new stealth system a bit too binary. If I use the heavier armour types, the whole level seems to wake up before I can sneak up on anyone.


That's the point, it's a trade-off. It's the same reason donning armor was added to 1.7.3, so you can't just switch out your armor once you're done sneaking. I think we should give it some time before dismissing it.
User avatar
Rev
 
Posts: 441
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 3:12 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Guitar » September 13th, 2013, 5:02 pm

I really like how the new stealth system works, but I agree that it could use a little polish. With a +5 ring of stealth and light armor you are effectively invisible, even while moving, unless you step into the light, at which point your stealth range jumps up all the way to 6 (or 5?), which is a little jarring. I think it could use a little smoothing. Also, while wearing heavy armor, it is pretty much impossible to avoid waking up the whole dungeon, which I like, but may be a bit too extreme. I had a few ideas, which may or may not be good, that may help a little.

1: Make pools of darkness and light more visible while you are viewing your stealth range. It can be especially hard to see pools of light, which are very dangerous for a stealth based character.

2: Tinker around with the formula that gives you your stealth radius to make it a little bit smoother, especially while having good stealth. I don't know exactly what to say here, because I'm not sure what the current formula is. It would make sense to me if your stealth radius would be the same when you move in normal light and stand still in bright light.

3: Add bonuses for environmental effects besides light and darkness. Being next to walls could give you a bonus, as could standing on moss the wall effect is stolen from Sil, and I think it plays very well. A rogue hiding in the foliage in the darkness in a corner should be fairly hard to spot, even while wearing full plate. Hitting, or being hit by a monster could give you a penalty (also from Sil). I don't think that overt means would be needed to communicate these things to the player, as seeing the stealth value change for example when they moved into a corner, or onto moss would do just that.

4: I think imp rover's idea of a slightly lower chance of enemies to notice you is good, as currently you seem to stand out pretty clearly to the denizens of the dungeon, perhaps 20% instead of 25%.

5: Instead of monsters automatically forgetting about you when they are 3x the distance of your stealth radius away, which seems a little spoilery to me, give them a chance (probably between 10% and 25%) to forget about you every turn that they are out of your stealth radius. That way, even if you are the clunkiest knight ever to enter the dungeon, you may be able to lose your foes by ducking behind doors. Currently, if you have aggroed an enemy that is relatively far away the best course of action is to find a patch of darkness, wait a turn there, and watch them walk away. It's nice, but seems a little cheap. Hunting monsters are game elements that you probably want to act a little unpredictably!

6: Perhaps send sleeping monsters into wandering state instead of hunting when you wake them up. This might be too powerful however.

Sorry, for all the ideas! I know it is a lot, but I couldn't help thinking about it. Please note, that despite all that I have just said here, I am actually happy with the current system, I just feel that it could be improved.
User avatar
Guitar
 
Posts: 305
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 3:38 pm
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Rev » September 13th, 2013, 6:52 pm

How do totems figure into the whole stealth thing? They seem to ignore the stealth range mechanic, which is kind of disappointing when you're going for a stealth build.
User avatar
Rev
 
Posts: 441
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 3:12 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Pender » September 13th, 2013, 7:49 pm

Rev wrote:How do totems figure into the whole stealth thing? They seem to ignore the stealth range mechanic, which is kind of disappointing when you're going for a stealth build.

Totems and turrets are always aware of you, as in previous versions.
Pender
Site Admin
 
Posts: 756
Joined: May 21st, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby sorta-stupid » September 13th, 2013, 8:47 pm

Pender wrote: ⁃ Submerging monsters cannot have the “explosive” mutation.

Thank you thank you thank you! Oh, I guess the other changes look nice too ;)
Haven't brogued in quite a while. I'm looking forward to giving this new version a shot.
sorta-stupid
 
Posts: 126
Joined: September 2nd, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby evilmike » September 13th, 2013, 8:55 pm

Guitar wrote:1: Make pools of darkness and light more visible while you are viewing your stealth range. It can be especially hard to see pools of light, which are very dangerous for a stealth based character.

I'm noticing this too. What's been getting me especially are wall mounted torches, as far as I can tell, these light up areas in their range, and wreck your stealth. It's hard to notice which squares they affect, and I tend to mistake them for regular walls too (they look different, but maybe not different enough).
evilmike
 
Posts: 12
Joined: May 11th, 2012, 10:11 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby sime » September 14th, 2013, 12:43 am

I love the visible stealth setting. It opens up a new area of the game that felt like guesswork before, but now I'm thinking much more about it. The immediate impact of walking into a dark or lit area is an example of this! I'm sure it will get tweaked further (eg. sleeping monsters get 10%, it is so fun cleaning up sleepers with a mace).

Thank you for easing the food scarcity, it was little tight, and a horribly depressing way to lose a long campaign.

I also think the wand of empowerment is pretty spot on - I appreciate that making "allies feel less compulsory" is the type of decision which makes this game great. I like that it means you can effectively divert enchantments into an ally through the scroll of enchantment.

Question: If creatures do not level up from "exploration experience", do they still gain experience through other means like making kills and taking damage? Edit: right they just don't level up unless empowered (I wonder how much stronger they effectively are...)
Last edited by sime on September 15th, 2013, 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
sime
 
Posts: 158
Joined: August 22nd, 2013, 5:27 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby roguewombat » September 14th, 2013, 7:21 am

Epic release, Pender. Great work - can't wait to play!
roguewombat
 
Posts: 72
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 11:21 pm
Location: Greenville, SC

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Buzzkill » September 18th, 2013, 7:24 pm

Just got into 1.7.3 today. Read this thread last night, don't remember if this was mentioned among all the stealth talk. The stealth radius display screws with 'color effects off' option, especially (or maybe exclusively) with bodies of water, even if the stealth display isn't toggled on. When it is toggled on, I find the color palette used to be very harsh, so even though I was curious to want to watch the radius as I moved, I very quickly turned it off and left it off. With it turned off, I found that 1.7.3 plays a lot like 1.7.2, at least with very light armour. I'll need more time to make a truly informed judgment, but from what I've seen so far I'd just as well go back to 1.7.2 stealth. I never felt like stealth was broken and I'm one who enjoys playing a sneaky, mace wielding rogue.
Buzzkill
 
Posts: 281
Joined: November 28th, 2012, 8:24 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby brh » September 18th, 2013, 9:26 pm

New at the forum (hi!), newish at Brogue, old at roguelikes. That's my minibio before I barge in here with a complaint :oops:.

It seems that in 1.7.3, no matter how small I scale down the window (OS X), anti-aliasing/font smoothing/whatever you want to call it never turns off. Personally, I think it should be the other way around, I never think it should turn on, but at least before I could keep the window at just the largest size before it turned on and be pleased… Perhaps some kind of toggle is in order…

Keep up the good work though, interested in trying some of the new mechanics in 1.7.3…
brh
 
Posts: 4
Joined: September 18th, 2013, 3:35 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Creaphis » September 20th, 2013, 12:08 am

Awesome stuff man, keep experimenting.
Creaphis
 
Posts: 867
Joined: April 2nd, 2012, 8:01 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Hareton » September 25th, 2013, 11:54 am

Are normal screen resolutions going to be added?
Hareton
 
Posts: 10
Joined: September 14th, 2013, 2:21 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby mirth23 » September 26th, 2013, 5:23 am

Looks fantastic, I can't wait to try it out. I'm surprised you didn't bump to 1.8 given how much work you did -- thanks!!!
User avatar
mirth23
 
Posts: 239
Joined: February 27th, 2013, 7:56 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Xandwich » October 5th, 2013, 11:45 am

Just noticed a dar priestess hasting/healing her jellies!
Xandwich
 
Posts: 262
Joined: June 2nd, 2013, 10:31 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Rev » October 5th, 2013, 4:23 pm

Xandwich wrote:Just noticed a dar priestess hasting/healing her jellies!

Oh yes, this can be dangerous.
User avatar
Rev
 
Posts: 441
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 3:12 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Patashu » October 17th, 2013, 12:35 am

Hey Pender, what version of SDL and what version of libtcod did you use to compile Brogue-windows-v1.7.3? I am using Windows 8 and Code::Blocks and every combination I've tried so far to compile with shows the main menu for one frame, then crashes with a segmentation fault, whereas the executable you made works fine.
User avatar
Patashu
 
Posts: 390
Joined: April 18th, 2012, 8:24 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby SecAcc » November 4th, 2013, 2:03 pm

Pender wrote:⁃ Sneak-attacking with a runic will either double the proc chance or increase it halfway to 100%, whichever is less.


So if the runic trigger rate is 50%, It will only be a 75% on sneak-attacks?
SecAcc
 
Posts: 2
Joined: November 2nd, 2013, 9:46 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby ggoDeye » January 21st, 2014, 12:56 pm

Pender wrote: ⁃ Redesigned ally progression to make allies feel less compulsory and capricious. A charge from the new Wand of Empowerment will permanently increase the combat abilities of a monster and allow it to absorb one ability from a fallen enemy. Allies that are empowered and subsequently negated will be able to re-learn their lost abilities. Allies no longer progress in strength or abilities from “exploration experience.”
⁃ Scrolls of recharging no longer affect wands.
⁃ Wands of domination and plenty are less common.
⁃ Nerfed the jellymancer build by preventing split jellies from inheriting their progenitor’s learned abilities or attributes.
⁃ Polymorph erases mutations.

Maybe I'm a narcissist, but maybe version 1.7.3 should be called "The anti-ggoDeye patch." I'm truly honored.

Pender wrote: ⁃ Centaurs and spiders will launch their projectile attacks whether or not the enemy is reflective.


However, this gets the mind going as Centaurs might be the only ally in the game worth using enchants on. Anyone want to help me try to find a way to exploit the new system?

Anyone seen Creaphis recently?
User avatar
ggoDeye
 
Posts: 828
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 7:06 pm

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Blazko » January 21st, 2014, 2:20 pm

When I had ally runs in 1.7.2 I found it extremely boring taking care of all the actions that your allies are performing. So I like the change.
Blazko
 
Posts: 503
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 5:01 am

Re: Announcing Brogue v1.7.3

Postby Pender » January 28th, 2014, 11:54 pm

ggoDeye wrote:Maybe I'm a narcissist, but maybe version 1.7.3 should be called "The anti-ggoDeye patch."

Sounds about right. Seeing the elder game progress among the most skillful players has got to be the best part about making a roguelike. Anyone able to pull off a depth 40 mastery deserves a richer strategic game.
Pender
Site Admin
 
Posts: 756
Joined: May 21st, 2010, 10:43 am


Return to Brogue General Discussion



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests



Ads Free Forum Hosting | APAC Free Forum Listing | EUROPE Free Forum Listing | USA Free Forum Listing | Terms of Service | Privacy